Spritual Authority

From SheddingReligion Yahoo group under the topic "Question About Spiritual Authority...?

OldPete66:

Heb 13.7 says, "Never forget your leaders, who first spoke to you the Word of God. Remember the result of their lives, and imitate their faith". The whole section goes on to warn about peculiar and strange doctrines.

Newer believers need to be supported and encouraged by those who have a little more wisdom under their belt. But the reality is that none of us have all the answers - we only see part of the picture.

I see people like Wayne Jacobsen and Jim Palmer as leaders who aim to persuade others based on their own experiences.

I've been on this journey a very long time and it's only in the last few years that I have begun to realise that it had been almost entirely head knowledge and almost no heart awareness. I realised in 1998 that I had been freed from the slavery of legalism but that was only a small beginning!

Unlike Wayne and Jim I have never been in a leadership position - I remember asking in a men's discussion group, "What is the purpose of life?" The immediate response of the vicar was, "Peter, you can't ask that, it's the 64,000 dollar question (a lot of money in those days). Let's go on to the next question". With hindsight that was the beginning of my journey away from traditional Christianity - and that was over 40 years ago! There was something missing and I didn't find that missing ingredient until I read "The Shack" in the summer of 2007!!!!

Those of us who have been drawn away from traditional churches know that there is something wrong with the nature of church. We question some of the theology we have been taught. We are being encouraged to get away from the baggage of religion. I would suggest that all of this is the work of the Spirit.

TheSamuels5 (katie):

hi there, in response to the heb 13:17 verse i thought i might just add my 2 cents worth :)
if you look it up in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer with the CLV (concordant literal version) it reads "be persuaded by your leaders and be deferring to them for they are vigilant for the sake of your souls, as having to render an account , that they may be doing this with joy, and not with groaning as this is disadvantageous to you."
this translations gives the verse a completely different feel -
"being persuaded" is very different language to "obey". the way i see it the author is encouraging the newer believers to come under the wing of the "leaders" who were the ones who had been walking this out a bit longer than them and had a little more wisdom under their belt. they were very useful and helpful to the other members (especially the more immature ones) as they had wisdom and experience to share with the other believers they were walking alongside of so the author encouraged them to not give them trouble because they are trying to be of assistance and help you grow in the Lord - not make you dependant on them though which is unfortunately how the IC deal does. i know myself i love to visit with and fellowship with others who have been walking this out longer with me, they have so much to contribute. i think the problem lies with good ol' king Jimmy and His version of the bible. unfortunately when his translators were doing their job they were instructed to use stronger language that would reinforce peoples obedience to him as their leader hence some of the translations in the king James translation is a little off. just some thoughts :)

Levels of Communication

This is from Jenn on lifestreams Yahoo group:

Levels of Communication:
1. General Facts and information
eg: the weather, news etc

2. Other ideas and opinions
eg: what do others think and say

3. Your own ideas and opinions
eg: what do you think

4. Your own beliefs and concerns
eg: I believe... my concern is...

5. Your own likes and dislikes
eg: What I prefer, my favourite things, things that bug me

6. Your inner feeling
eg: how you feel about the situation, mad, sad, angry, hurt, scared

My counselor taught me to start at 1 with every single person I meet.
Don't jump right to 6, that the each level has a purpose. ....even people I want to be at level 6 with I can't as the relationship just isn't capable of it. ...if you took your time in the new groups and waded through these levels. Jesus will direct you into relationships that you can go to level 6 with. To me level 6 is the true 'one anothering' level. People that gossip or do not have our best interests at heart won't even be at this level. And for friends that may not fully understand discretion at this level you'd be able to communicate your feelings to them knowing that it's safe to do so.

Formula for Making Decisions

This is from Jeff Matsler on the Yahoo Group SheddingReligion in response to the post "Question about Spiritual Authority...?" I add it here to remember this formula and test it.

I was raised to follow and use a formula originally attested, I believe, to St. Augustine but refined by Wesley often referred to as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. It states that something must pass four tests to be considered a valid option / perspective. The rule continues to work for me and I'm happy to share it with those who are interested.

When something is challenging and decisions of great importance must be made - whether it's following the Spirit, doing "God's will", obeying a certain authority, etc., my tradition teaches that it must be subjected to four tests: Scripture, Tradition,Experience and Reason. If the decision / relationship / action / etc., being considered can stand up to scriptural scrutiny, is not something that my offends my traditional values and is not contrary to all I have experienced to be true and of Christ, then if it is rational to do so, it is probably acceptable. Scripture, being scripture, has primacy but must be supported by the other 3 in order to insure that your interpretation of it is valid.

For example let's take a question many in this group have been asking or have already asked:

Is it against God's will to leave the institutional church?

In the scriptures, Christ and others often went out into the desert, away from others to be with God, even if only for a time. - SCRIPTURE

In the church, there have always - since the earliest times - been those who were repulsed by the institution and went to live either a monastic or communal life apart from the church. Other groups separated completely from the organized church and continued to experience the vibrant life of the Holy Spirit in their own lives and communities. TRADITION

In my experience, the current institution of the church has not and is not meeting the needs God is placing upon my heart. My experience has been that I personally encounter God and His perfect love more outside the committees and power plays that seem to be the center most groups I have encountered that call themselves church. - EXPERIENCE

It makes no sense to stay associated with a group that is not promoting Christ and call themselves the church. No amount of guilt or manipulation should keep a person in a community that is not serving its stated purpose and is creating pain and grief in their lives. REASON.

Therefore, it stands the test that it is indeed NOT against God's will to step outside of the institutional church tradition and in some cases, it may be going against divine will to remain inside it.

Walking in the Light

This is from Dena in the lifestreamjourneys group on Yahoo. I post it here to remind myself:

There's no blueprint. No "one right way" to transform from one way of thinking to another ... God deals with each one uniquely, with each group, uniquely. All you can do is to have integrity --- let your outsides match your insides. BE who you are, and let yourself be as you're becoming. He's got the agenda, and sometimes you only have enough Light for the next step. You can't do it "right" (and really, no one's policing or grading how it's done). It WILL be messy - that's given. You don't
get it right in your head, so that you can make no mistakes ... you make the mistakes so that you can learn. Be open, be honest, be true to what He's showing you. Let it morph.
Want truth more than you want to be right. Walk in the Light you've been given, and give others the freedom and space to walk in the Light they've been given. Sometimes you're both in the same patch of Light at the same time --enjoy and bask in the glow together. He'll let you know whether the season for this group is past fruition, or continuing. ASK HIM.
Shalom, Dena

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lifestreamjourneys/message/19508

The Conventional Congregational "Church"

Why did I stop going to "church"?

I didn't intend to stop going totally. I became disillusioned with the congregation I attended many years for several reasons. I felt a burden that the congregation was not being the church of the New Testament. The power plays, dissension, back biting, unwillingness to go outside the walls, cliques, aversion to accepting and welcoming all types of people - these things and many more bothered me. I was part of this congregation for 14 years and rarely did anything with anyone outside the four walls. I had plenty of positive relationships within the walls, but no invitation to join those same people on the outside.

So my intent was to try other congregations. I did. I really liked one, but still felt it wasn't the body of Christ I was looking for. I KNOW there is no perfect congregation - wasn't looking for one - just looking for one that wanted, that strived to be the body of Christ - one that reaches out to all people and works to help all people. It's difficult for me to go new places and I sort of gave up.

Then I read "The Shack" which led to reading "So You Don't Want to Go to Church Anymore". That really hit home with me. That's what I'm looking for. We are all imperfect and therefore make up an imperfect body, only made perfect in Christ, but the heart - the heart that desires God's ways and His will - that's what I want.

Where do I find that? I don't know. That is something that God will have to bring to me or bring me to. For now, I will do what I can. I will draw closer to Him, I will talk to the online community, and I will wait for His timing and His will. He knows my heart, He knows my desire, He will provide.

Reaching Out to Others

I so want to get involved in giving my time to help others, but I don't know where to begin. I would love to be part of a body that helps each other and reaches out to those who need help, but as of right now God hasn't seen fit to have that in my life.

I have long term goals, God willing, but I want to get started now. I've wasted so many years being focused only on myself and my family. It's way past time to move on.

I don't know how people find time to devote to their families, their jobs, and reaching out to help others. It makes me so ashamed that I haven't done more. BUT I shouldn't compare myself to others. I did what I thought I had to do at the time. I did the best I could with what I knew for many years. Now it's time for a change.

Where to volunteer, how to help others - that is the question. I think right now that visiting some elderly people who don't have anyone in their lives might be where I want to go. But I'm not sure how to get started. I have had the number for a nursing home on my desk for over a week now - meaning to call. But maybe a shut-in would be better because they really don't have anyone - but how do I find them? Do I wait for God to show me someone? Is it up to me to initiate a move? I wish I knew. It brings to mind the parable of the stewards and the one who did nothing because he was afraid. Then again there's the school of thought that we don't get ahead of God - we wait on Him. But perhaps it's better that I make a move, take an action, take the chance on making a mistake of doing the wrong right thing, rather than doing nothing at all. It's such a dilemma.

My Job

I am blessed to work for my company. It was totally God. When my husband and I split I was pregnant with our 3rd child. I worked in a secretarial type position and didn't make much money. Even though I wasn't commited to God at that point in my life, He worked an amazing courage in me to quit my job and go to school to make a better life for my family. He brought me to a part time position that would eventually turn full time when I finished school. I am now making more than 3 times what I did when I first started my full time position - after 12 years. God is amazing and good.

My company, which is privately owned, has recently (in the last few years) come to a place where they started adding prayer to corporate meetings. We can see how God has gained an increasing importance in the company values. Near the end of last year they started holding a morning prayer meeting for any who want to join. Just amazing. All this makes me proud to work for this company.

But.. I had grown increasingly dissatisfied in my job. I have loved what I do (I am a developer), but the last few years my desire has been growing more towards wanting to make a difference for people. At one point I became so dissatisfied that it was painful to go to work. I think I have accepted that I am where I am until God opens doors to go elsewhere, but I have such a desire to commit myself in service to others. I am trying to find a way to do it outside of my job, but I also have other responsibilities and wonder if I just need to focus on finishing raising my youngest, although she stays in her room 99% of the time and would probably benefit from me getting involved, and hopefully her as well, in bettering the lives of others.

Political Views

I'm not a political person. I'm a registered Republican because those are the views I was raised with. I am against abortion for purposes of birth control (jury is still out on other purposes); I believe homosexuality is wrong (it's just unnatural for starters, plus the Bible is clearly against it), I believe in a lifetime marriage between a man and a woman (although mine didn't work out). In a nutshell, some of the liberal views are just a little much to handle. Plus I really have a problem with handouts when a person is just not motivated to get out and make things work for him/her. Those are the things I saw when I looked at Democrats.

During the campaign some were spouting off the 'evils of Obama' in so many facets (fear is an amazing tool), and while I didn't completely buy into it, it was an additional factor to be swayed towards McCain. Then McCain chose Palin. I admit - I liked her. I really did.

But... what really swayed me were my thoughts about which one portrayed to me a more Christ like attitude - whether professed Christian or not. The Republican campaign was so negative, so much mud slinging, so much negative speak about the opposing team. Palin specifically disappointed me here in light of her professed denominational connections. The Democratic campaign did not come across that way so much. The focus should have been more on the people and how to help them and lead them. The Democrats seem to be more about helping people and accepting them for who they are. Which is more Christ-like? I wasn't fully convinced in time to change my vote, but I believe I am glad Obama won - only time will tell.

Of course, I also believe that there are machines at work behind the politics - maneuvering and managing situations to achieve political and power goals. But I think Obama might actually be good for this country. I am impressed by him. He may be fooling us, but he comes across to me as caring, wanting to do the right thing (although I might not agree it's the right thing), reaching out to all people.

October 23, 2010:

Reading this post again...I don't think we can ever understand everything about those "leaders" who are put before us for our vote. Mirrors and distraction.

Perhaps the best we can do is to vote against the one we believe will do the most damage...

About Me...

I'm new to this blogging thing.

I've recently read "The Shack" and "So You Don't Want to Go to Church Anymore". Both of them have spoken to me so loudly.

I've been a church goer for most of my life (with the exception of a few years when I was rebelling) and in the past several years my heart has grown increasingly heavy with the disappointment in the church as it relates to the church I believe Jesus intended us to be.

I'm not anywhere near where I want to be spiritually (sometimes I feel like a baby drinking milk) but in some ways I have come so far. I've long wanted to be in a place where I am dependent on God and recognize His thoughts and whispers. I want to be part of a body who reaches out to others and who helps each other on their way. Helping - not hurting - not judging - not criticizing.

I guess the thing is - I'm all alone. I'm a single mom who has lived her life for her kids who are almost all grown. I've neglected the social side of life and now since I have left my church (where I didn't have any significant 'outside the walls' relationships after 14 years) I have no one. I tend to be a loner anyway and very independent - something I'm really wanting to change. I'm at a place where I'm starting to understand how important relationships are. My mom used to tell me growing up that no man is an island and I've finally reached the place where I actually believe her - at least no happy man (woman).

I can see how God has worked in me. I'm very frustrated with the snail's pace at which I move. While I'm in a better place than I have been, I have SO FAR to go - and I've lived most of my life - past that half century mark. I'm anxious to evolve, yet need to have peace with God's timing.

So the published journey begins...